The Hidden Costs of Hospital Observation Care

Under observation

A medical status of "under observation" is saving money for hospitals and insurance companies, but often costs patients more, particularly for older patients and people on Medicare.
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Joseph Haas

Subject:

My wife was in the hospital for 50 days. She was being medicated with Fentanyl which is a very powerful Opiate. It was used daily during her hospital stay. It made her comatose all the time in the hospital. She never woke up, so we could never say goodbye. The hospital never told us the truth about her condition. Medicare was charged $478,000 for Pharmacy services.
The hospital refuses to give us the medical records for the drugs she was on and the name of the Doctor who authorized them.

Virginia

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I cannot pretend to understand the healthcare system in America. All I know is that I had a small tumor in my throat, which in 2003 was diagnosed as squamous cell carcinoma of the neck. The surgical procedure to remove it went horrifically wrong and has left me completely disabled at a relatively young age. I am, therefore, now covered by medicaid. I have all the same doctors as my husband. Yet, his health costs run over $10K p/annum, plus $440 p/month in insurance premiums. Mine are $0, but much to my dismay are paid for by taxpayers. On the contrary, in 1980 while visiting in Italy, I was hospitalized for 32 days, saving thousands in hotel and food costs, and only paid $750 total for services rendered. There was no waiting in line; I learned to speak Italian fluently; and I met some wonderful people with whom I am still in touch with to this day. Overall, my experience was most memorable for a most memorable low cost. In America, it cost me thousands to become a disabled vegetable. Yet, somehow, my doctor who performed the cancer surgery has a flawless reputation. Thanks to Angie's list, this is about to change.

grace

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We do have universal free medical care in this country. It is called the emergency room and public health offices where people go and have tests run and get a limited amount of RX medication. They must return to get more and it is very regulated and paid for by the taxpayer. No other country has so many layers of care, and so few know where to get medical care at a reduced price. However the wheels turn slow and we do not want more of our tax dollars to go to such involved regulated programs. I have been a RN for 24 years and worked in a variety of fields. It is expensive and not very organized or fair for anyone. We do pay the lowest taxes of any country. Europe and Asians pay 50% or more in government health and welfare programs. Some like it and some don't- they come here for the medical care- especially over the age of 65, there are waiting lines- I have heard from those coming here.

Michael

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So long as someone else is paying the bill be it government or insurance, there is no free market. I'll pay a $25 co-pay to Kroger, you pay for the balance of my food then watch the prices rise.

Patrick

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I'm sure i'm going to be lambasted here, but these are just the facts.

A couple of facts that many should consider before forming what seem to be ill-informed and politically charged opinions.

The gov't currently pays for - in one form or another - ballpark 70% of all healthcare costs in this country. It is the most heavily subsidized and heavily gov't influenced major industry in the United States. The idea that we have ever had anything approaching a market in US healthcare (or almost anywhere else in the world) is fallacy.

The Hospital industry, which makes up nearly half of all healthcare costs, is roughly 85% not-for-profit operated. For better or for worse, the non-profit operators do more to drive up overall costs than for-profit systems.

Insurance companies, which take the most heat from politicians and voters, are almost 50% not-for-profit owned (by number of lives covered). Headlines in recent months blasting insurance companies for greedily jacking up rates by double digits in CA & the southwest were aimed at non-profit insurance companies.

30% of all nursing homes are operated by not-for-profits.

Doctors make all healthcare decisions in the US. They are heavily influenced by payment structure and hospital administration, but doctors are who practice and prescribe medicine.

Global Hemp

Subject:

We live in a world where "non-profit" (read: tax exempt) hospitals charge $120 for an ice pack. If you have insurance, then you have a negotiator on your side. They get the price of the ice pack down to "only" $80.

All of the "losses" from non-payment are not write-offs, rather write-ons -- the next person pays for it.

In the world of auto insurance, you pay for a car, car insurance. If you are a risky driver based on age (e.g., teenager) or have had a DUI then your premiums are high. If you are a good driver, you have discounts.

When you go to purchase a new car -- its the SAME price for a risky driver and a safe driver. The difference the two will pay is not based by the provider (car dealer), rather the insurance carrier.

However, in the US -- EVERYONE pays the high price such as $120 for an ice pack (or "only" $80 if they have insurance)? What a crock!

Elmer

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On the stresstest Jim They rob you with a pen there you could have bought your own walker machine for the test for that probly.

Jb

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Part of the problem is that no one has any idea what the cost is that they are acrruing. Would anyone go to a car dealer and get a car without knowing what the cost of each option was. The hospitals charges are different depending on which insurance you have.

Mary

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Well, guess I shouldn't complain then that the hospital bill for my husband's pacemaker was $2,200. That was the 20% left over from what Medicare (Primary) and Blue Cross (FEPBlue) paid their shares. Since my husband does not have Part B, Part A does not cover "outpatient" stays. He was kept overnight for "observation." We were never consulted concerning the financial difference this might make. Don't like surprises!

William Heller

Subject:

This is significantly critical information. Some hospitals code what actually IS an inpatient stay as an observation because they are more assured of getting at least some payment, whereas denials by carriers/Medicare of "inpatient" stays are difficult to challenge. Moreover, this is done by some hospitals without advising the patient.

John Danehy

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You are delusional if you think Medicare is responsible for the state of our health care system. It is in a sorry state for one reason: it is privatized.

I have lived in France and in England for long periods of time with my family and we have extensive personal experience with both those countries medical systems. They are simply better than ours: they deliver the same level of care, at far lower cost per person. You choose your own doctor, anywhere in the country, at any time, and there are no "waiting lines."

Most of what we heard about "European" style health care during the last election was false. There is no logical, ethical, or moral reason why 20-30% of our health care dollars should be siphoned off the top by middle-men insurance companies who do nothing other than come between you and your doctor.

The retiring CEO of United Health Care took home a payout package of 1.6 BILLION dollars. Where do you think that money came from?

Jim

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I was charged 7000 dollars for a stress test. Any comments.

Bruce

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"bluelou" is flat out lieing. Where in the medical profession could he work and think the it's been deregulated for the last 20 years?

Ken

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Yes, the free market is good and regulation is bad. But, is that the lesson taught by the nineteenth century robber barons or is that just ancient history.

Harriet

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Until we demand and obtain a single payor not for profit system we will continue to spend good money after bad
The partisanship in this country is shameful as is the immorality of neglecting the bare faced fact of a shrinking middle class, increasing lower and poor and incredible wealth among a few whose greed is palpable

dori

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I've been paying for medicare and social security ALL of my adult life, and I expect to use it. Also... whoever said the hospitals order tests to make money ..it's YOUR DOCTOR who orders the tests..the hospital only carries out what your doctor prescribes.

dianern

Subject:

The difference is that the hospital gets paid one flat rate for the admission, no matter how long the pt stays as an "Obs" patient. After 24 hours, we get paid nothing, unless the pt is converted to an in patient. So, the hospital eats a lot of cost. Now me, at 53, I don't give a rip, but the powers that be DO. They PUSH is to get these patients out as soon as safely possible. So my advice is to either push to be an inpatient, or else urge your docs to get you out ASAP. I'm sure the patient gets billed, as of course the insurance companies most likely DO bill you for tests, etc, after that 24 hour period. Remember. The hospital gets a flat fee from medicare or any other private company. Extra costs passed on to you? Yes, but to your insurance companies, NOT the hsopital. Just the truth.. We must ALL protect ourselves and each other against these obscenely inflated costs!

Toni

Subject:

The free market does have a system. 90 days before your 65th birthday you are informed that you have to have Medicare part B. To get this you have to go to the Social Security office and sit there for 4 hours. Then you are told the only way you can get part B is to sign up for Social Security even though you are not eligible for full benefits for another year and a half. This is done so they can ensure they get their $98.. a month. Now you are between a rock and a hard place. Everything is considered pre existing so trying to get ins that would actually cover your medical bills and meds are now few and far between. To add insult to injury Dr's that you have gone to for 12-15 years won't see you now because they no longer take medicare. Some of the Dr's offices will contact you and offer a VIP service. You pay $1500-$2500 a year and they'll file your Medicare claim BUT you are responsible for 20% of the billed amount.
I wish I could still be on my medical policy. I was glad to pay it.
Unfortunately Dr's who have been "practicing" for a number of years would rather have 600 paying clients than 3000 medicare patients. That leaves you at the bottom of a very full barrel. I would rather have a choice in any Dr I have to go to, not whoever can get the most patients on the books per hour.
Toni age 67

bluelou

Subject:

@frank. If you had facts to back up your rhetoric, I'd listen. "Shere" lunacy is your thought that your problems center on regulation. The regulation of health care has been dismantled over 20 years. As a professional in the industry, I'd have to say you have it backwards. As you may know Ayn Rand, that free market diva, used her husbands name to get medicare for cancer. In her words, "I couldn't afford that. It could ruin me." No other country in the world takes your house if you get sick.

Sherrell Ann

Subject:

Inpatient status must meet specific criteria with level of acuity as well as level of treatment for Medicare, Medicaid, and Commercial Carriers. Otherwise the stay may be denied with no reimbursement to the facility. Inpatient stays are now reimbursed by diagnosis with limited payment regardless of costs incurred. Hospitals are hardly making profits with excessive tests and/or treatment ordered by the physician. Observation status has developed over the need to evaluate a patient's illness which may or may not meet inpatient criteria.

Kristen

Subject:

This article is not entirely correct. Medicare patients cannot be charged for "medically unnecessary" testing unless they signed a form in advance agreeing to do so. Most hospitals do not ask Medicare patients to do this as an observation patient. For a patient to be an inpatient, they have to meet specific criteria that shows they are "sick enough" Also, a 3 day stay does not guarantee coverage for a nursing home stay. And, for commercial insurances, the insurance company most often dictates what status they will approve for the patient.

Stephanie

Subject:

Healthcare does not operate well as a market. Pricing is not transparent, insurance company discounts confuse the whole process, networks eliminate choice, and people who are very sick are not in a position to shop for quality or price. So stop calling it a market or expecting it to act like a market. We need so called "socialized medicine." Sorry, Republicans.

Susan

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Please delineate between original Medicare and Medicare Advantage plans when you give such detailed information, since the info/figures are quite different.

cathi

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I agree with you Keith, The Republicans can fix the health care system just like they did at the state level in Arizona, deny coverage to transplant patients and take hundreds of thousand of people off public health care. funny how that figures out to save about the same as the tax incentives it gave to business this year. Remember that FREE Market = for PROFIT insurance

Kay

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Lindsey P. is correct!

Frank

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Surely you folks don't think there has been a free market in health care at any level for the past 50 or 60 years. And the more the government intervenes, the worse it gets.
Health csre costs as a percentage of total economy has gone up primarily because there is a lot more product to buy and we want to buy it. Just as the cost of "automobiles" went up a century ago because cars became available and we wanted to buy them. The cost of specific services has gone down. But in general regulation has taken away competition and made things worse than they need to be.

Frank

Lindsey P.

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I don't think we have to guess what the free market would have done since it's been in effect for the rest of the health care market for those under 65 during this time. The result: rising health care costs no one can control, less coverage for more money, and almost 50 million uninsured. Great job free market. In fact, Medicare has one of the lowest overheads (3%) vs. 10-30% for private insurance, and one of the highest levels of satisfaction.

Keith

Subject:

Hi Frank,

If you haven't noticed, the so called "free market" of private insurance hasn't exactly done a bang-up job in the past 50 years either. I'll admit that the Medicare system is definitely flawed. But the private health insurance system is equally flawed.

I remember when I worked for myself around 2002. I bought a self-employed private PPO plan that started out at $143/month. After two years the cost had risen to $388/month, and I had barely even used it.

But I'm sure it's all the Democrats fault. The Republicans have definitely done everything right on health care in the past 50 years.

Glenn

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Frank you mean the way the free market has worked out a system that makes our prescriptions so affordable, right?

Frank

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Wouldn't it be great if we had not have Medicare the past 50 years and the free market could have worked out a system that works and is affordable. Thank you Lyndon Johnson and Democrats for this turkey. Shere lunacy.

Frank, age 66

Mary

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Recently I was sent home from the emergency room only to be called back by the hospital (a test made showed need for further observation) within twelve hours and was subsequently admitted to the hospital. I dread to think of what my insurance company will be paying for this situation.

flowerdocs

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At least with observation the patient is aware of the added charges for testing and theoretically can refuse anything that seems unnecessary. With inpatient Medicare, there is a huge cost to society as hospitals make profits by ordering increasing numbers of expensive tests and procedures and aren't held accountable by anyone....

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I second the original question (still unanswered). Speaking as someone who logged in today to try to find an attorney, I see this category as one that's exactly what I have my Angie's List membership for:

1. It's important that I find a good one
2. I'm not an expert enough to know myself who is a good one
3. The industry is full of advertisements and misinformation
4. I wish I knew what experiences other people have had


?
I don't care about lawns--I planted mine in clover and don't have to mow it. When I do need to mow I use a rotary Fiskars mower, which is great--or a scythe. That's right--a scythe (the European type, which is smaller, and it's very good exercise). Gas-powered mowers, chemical fertilizers and weed killers--all nasty stuff that gets into everyone's air, soil, and water. I'm sure my neighbor doesn't like my wildflowers, semi-wild pockets of fruit bushes, and unmown areas and yes, dandelions (I have 10 acres) but that's too bad. It's better habitat for wildlife, especially the pollinators on which our food supply depends. I think this obsession with the Great American Lawn is a waste of time and resources. Plant some food instead.


?
I'm not sure Angie et. al. want you to have a complete answer to this question. By re-subscribing at the Indiana State Fair in 2012, I think I paid $20.00 per year for a multi- year subscription. Maybe even less. At the other extreme--and I hope my memory isn't faulty about this--I think the price, for my area, for ONE year was an outrageous $70.00. And they debited me automatically without warning. I had to opt out of that automatic charge. I like Angie's List, but if some of the companies they monitor behaved the way they do in this respect, they'd be on some sort of Pages of Unhappiness. I'll be interested to see if this comment gets published or censored out of existence.
?

That's very difficult to answer without seeing the house. As one poster said, the prep is the most important part. On newer homes that don't have a lot of peeling paint, the prep can be very minimal even as low as a couple or a few hundred dollars for the prep labor.

On a 100 year old home with 12 coats of peeling paint on it, then the prep costs can be very high and can easily exceed 50% of the job's labor cost.

A 2100 sq ft two story home could easily cost $1000 just for the labor to prep for the paint job. That number could climb too. Throw in lots of caullking  or window glazing, and you could be talking a couple or a few hundred dollars more for labor.

Painting that home with one coat of paint and a different color on the trim could run roughly $1000 or more just for labor. Add a second coat  and that could cost close to another $1000 for labor.

For paint, you may need 20 gallons of paint. You can pay from $30-$70 for a gallon of good quality exterior paint. The manufacturer of the paint should be specified in any painting contract. Otherwise, the contractor could bid at a Sherwin-Williams $60 per gallon paint and then paint the house with $35 Valspar and pocket the difference. $25 dollars per gallon times 20 gallons? That's a pretty penny too.

That was the long answer to your question. The short answer is $2000 to $4000 and up, depending upon the amount of prep, the number of coats, the amount of trim, and the paint used.